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Asunto:PAN- You can act right now, at home / Naomi Klein on Globalization and Resistence / Zapatistas and Indigenous People in Mexico
Fecha:Miercoles, 27 de Junio, 2001  19:19:58 (-0700)
Autor:Ricardo Ocampo-Anahuak Networks <chicanos>

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Free Planetary Meditation Calendar & Program 2001-2002 
Naomi Klein's Conference in Mexico City on Globalization and Resistence 
Interview and related web sites below 
I've been very privileged to go protest hopping over the past year, it's a 
little bit like following the Grateful Dead. I have a distorted view of the 
world because every time I enter a city it's filled with revolutionaries 
taking to the streets. 
But never have I seen anything like Mexico City on Sunday.. what was 
wonderful about sunday was to see the support in the city among workers and 
families and to see the integration of this movement in every aspect of 
life. Too often the protestors are seen as out-of-towners who come to a city 
and there isn't that integration, which is a disappointment. 
I'm going to talk about the movement, even though there's no movement, 
there's movements, many movements.. and they converge and explode every once 
in a while like in Prague, then they disperse and we wonder are we going 
It's fitting to talk about this in DF, some say it began in Seattle, others 
say it began 500 years ago, but I think in many ways we can trace this new 
wave of resistance, of direct action to January 1st 1994. 
When I picture all these networks of activists I imagine not a pyramid but a 
web, it's almost like the Internet come to life. I think that when we think 
what this Movement of Movements stands for, the task is to identify the 
threads that connect this web. 
The most powerful thread that unites this movement of movements is the 
reaction to the privatization of every aspect of human life and by 
privatization I don't just mean the privatization of education and 
healthcare but more broadly the privatization of ideas, the commodification 
of images, even in the way Zapatismo is being comercialized here in Mexico. 
Powerful ideas turned into advertising slogans, generations of young people 
target-marketed from birth. And we see previously public spaces opened up to 
commercialism and advertising; US schools allowing in Pepsi, McDonalds, Nike 
etc.. We're also talking about the privatization of water, human life and 
genes, and of seeds being bioengineered by corporations like Monsanto. 
This privatization is felt around the world from university campuses to 
indigenous communities, where lands stolen by colonialism are now handed 
over to agribusiness, which is why we felt that agrarian reform is the 
unfinished business of this era. 
This privatization, the agenda is getting deeper and deeper, with the first 
glimpses of ALCA and next round of WTO, with side agreements about GATT and 
TRIPS, access to patents, even more devastating in Africa in the midst of 
the AIDS crisis. 
I try not to use acronyms but this movement is also about citizens forcing 
their way into this maze of acronyms, inside a system designed to make all 
of us feel we were sick the day everyone else learned the meaning of these 
The way we find our way into this maze is through personal connections to 
globalization, almost doorways that make globalization accessible to us.. 
it's different in different countries. 
In Europe it's all about food, because through the food scares that are 
going on right now, diseases that have entered the food chain, people are 
thinking about the centralisation, the industrialisation of the food they 
put in their children's mouths. 
In the US and Canada, the doorway into the maze of acronyms have been the 
brand names that so aggressively targeted young people. Student 
anti-sweatshop campaigns grow because companies like Nike sponsor the 
schools then the students research.and make links, creating. an activist web 
to mirror the corporate web. 
So far the focus among students has been injustice in other countries not in 
the US, that is starting to change, thank goodness. 
In Florida, two weeks ago, I met some workers, mostly from Mexico, picking 
tomatoes in Florida, they had no no rights, they were not allowed to form 
unions. Living in the land of the free, and they haven't got a raise in 20 
years. they live 10 workers to a single trailer and haven't been able to 
negotiate directly with their employers, so they started to research who the 
biggest buyers were of the tomatoes, and they found out the biggest buyer 
was Taco Bell. 
Now we have a big 'Yo No Quiero Taco Bell" campaign (I don't want Taco 
While it's easy to say what the movement is against, It's harder to say what 
the Movement is for.. 
The truth is that no one can answer that question, the movement is too 
diverse to have any one person or one organisation to speak for it. But I'm 
going to try, joking 
Is this an anti-globalization movement at all? What I see is a fiercely 
internationalist movement, that is not globaphobic at all, what this is 
really about, (there is disagreement whether globalization is inherently 
wrong), what is most inspiring here in Mexico is that what you are doing 
here is forcing the discussion to be about democracy. 
This word globalization is very imprecise, neoliberalism is more precise, I 
also use the word McGovernment, like McDonalds it believes we should have 
the same government everywhere in the world, which is tax cuts, privatise, 
liberalise and pray to the Gods of trickle-down economics. So when every 
government in the world is told that they have to follow one single economic 
recipe- that is not democracy. 
In the lead up to ALCA we should insist that this is not about trade or 
globaphobia but about using trade, the incentive, the carrot of trade to 
enforce turbo-capitalism. These are the pre-conditions to successful trade, 
to be trade-ready, trade-friendly. In some countries it's more subtly 
enforced through the bond market, (Stock Market) OECD, in other countries 
it's enforced with a hammer by the IMF. 
The real issue is not trade but the strings and conditions attached to 
trade, that lead to the loss of self-determination, power, control and 
democracy, it's bundled along with it like Microsoft software. Back in 
Seattle, the guy taking down the letters NIKE, (from the Nike Town shop 
front), if you looked closely he was wearing Nike shoes. The press had a 
field day,'Look at these hypocrites, they love trade yet they protest.' 
I don't see any contradiction because I don't see this as about consumer 
politics, it's about real politics. The question is not are you for or 
against trade the question is do we have the right to negotiate the terms of 
our relationship with capital inside our countries and with foreign capital. 
And as we've seen with all the NAFTA chap 11 cases, (court of arbitration) 
the answer is that we seem to have traded away that right. The strongest 
example is Metalplad, (check name), which sued the Mexican government for 
$16.7 million, because of the decision not to have a hazardous waste dump. 
This question of democracy is the same issue around the world in these trade 
disputes, Jose Bove, became famous for strategically dismantling a McDonalds 
in France, people thought he just didn't like hamburgers, but of course this 
action was taken because France had attempted to ban hormone-treated beef 
from America and there was retaliation against French farm exports. 
Too often the connections on how globalization plays out on the ground, 
rejecting a dump, or whether we trust food, these connections are not made 
by the people. 
Which is why it's helpful to think of this movement of movements as being 
about big protests in Seattle, Prague or Mexico City, it's about thousands 
of local struggles, that are dealing hands-on with neoliberalism as it is 
played out on the ground. 
Issues like clean water, homelessness, police violence, people talk about 
creating some big political party, a single global movement with a cabal of 
leaders promoting their one-size fits all ideology to do battle with the 
other guys from Davos with their one-size fits all ideology. 
What the Zapatistas have taught so many people is that what we really need 
is an international political framework that encourages, celebrates and 
fiercely protects the right to diversity. Ecological diversity, cultural 
diversity, agricultural diversity and yes, even political diversity, 
different ways of doing politics, a world with a possibility of many worlds 
in it. 
Thousands of local movements founded on principles of participatory 
democracy, when we talk about globalization, we're talking about a crisis in 
representative democracy, the systematic delegation of authority to points 
further and further away from where we live and where those decisions are 
From local to state, state to national, national to international, until 
democracy is voting for a guy in a tie. 
At the World Social Forum (WSF) in Porto Alegre, there was a real tension 
within this so-called movement about what to do with this so-called crisis 
in representative democracy, some people said we need to democratise world 
government and some people said we need more transparency at the WTO, others 
said the only way to respond to the international crisis in representative 
democracy is participatory democracy at the local levelŠ I think we're 
already seeing this with the spirit of radically reclaiming space from 
corporations and the Mc Government neoliberal model.. In the US students 
kick ads out of their classrooms, in Europe there are huge Reclaim The 
Streets (RTS) parties. 
In Thailand, a movement of people plant organic vegetables on golf courses, 
in Bolivia, citizens rejected the privatization of water, the billboard 
liberation front In Canada plus space reclaimed in the Internet even as the 
Internet is turned into another shopping mall. The Indymedia centres, and 
even the late Napster, young people who grew up with every aspect of their 
culture commodified, trading art and music with each other, instead of 
What this has to do with the Zapatistas, the message of the Zapatistas to 
young people, is that you don't have to wait for the revolution to act, you 
can act right now, at home. 
Sesión de preguntas, Q y A 
It's dangerous to generalise, better to insist on a movement of movements. 
We're not talking about exporting what's happening in Europe to a counry 
like Mexico. 
What happened in Seattle is that for the first time in America in the heart 
of global capitalism, we saw workers and students joining a movement that 
was coming from the global south and not the other way round, that aspect 
has been lost when people talk about the movement starting in Seattle. 
It's not the same but what we see with the WTO and NAFTA and ALCA, if we let 
it pass, is the politics of structural adjustment are coming to the north, 
that's what happens when government is sued by corporations for having laws 
seen as trade barriers. 
In terms of divisions within the movement, one thing became clear at the 
WSF, is that there needs to be real democracy within the movement at local 
level before there can be any international democracy within the movement, 
the WSF made an attempt to have international democracy when at the grass 
roots there is still so much division, just as economies in the north have a 
lot to learn from countries in the south who have been fighting structural 
adjustment in the south, all of us have a huge amount to learn from 
indigenous communities around the world. The fact that indigenous people are 
at the forefront of this movement makes sense, because you had a 500 year 
head start.. 
In terms of patenting traditional medicines and drinks and drug patents 
there can and should be an international campaign around these issues, it is 
life and death 
What to say to the people outside this room? 
When you look at what is happening right now in Africa, where millions of 
people are left to die because of patents, you'll never find an issue with 
the potential to galvanise if we can't make that connection, that means 
there's something wrong with us. 
What's interesting is, the debate about free trade was about adding on to 
agreements, side accords, on environment and labour issues, this has been 
seen as protectionist, it strengthens these organisations by giving them 
more power. The next round of negotiation of the WTO is important, we must 
resist the push from US multinationals, people say well, we haven't changed 
these institutions, there have been no victories, that's not true.. the 
Multi-lateral treaty on investment was defeated, the WTO round in Seattle 
was halted, the World Bank would like us to believe that they are an 
AIDS-elimination programme, the theme at Davos this year was the gap between 
rich and poor.. they haven't changed how they act but they have changed how 
they talk. 
Blocking Clinton and Bush from having fast-track, is a significant 
challenge. The Democrats in congress who want Fast track tied to labour and 
environmental standards, if Bush can't get fast track there's no FTAA.. 
Q-What is ALCA? 
A-ALCA is NAFTA multiplied by 34, Fast-Track (via rapida) is negotiating 
power by which congress can say yes or no to a bill but cannot change it. 
Boeing and Caterpillar and corporations lobby for side agreements as it's 
the only way to get fast-track. When labour unions, AFL-CIO lobby for such 
agreements they are playing into the hands of multinationals. The strategy 
should not be to add on but to take out. Via Campesina have called for food 
safety and agriculture to be taken out of agreements, this is our most basic 
thing, take it out-its not a commodity. 
Q- Zedillo said there should be a campaign against globaphobes? 
A- Many people in this room can vouch for the fact that there already is 
one, it's a war, we saw in Cancun, the incredible brutality, in Quebec, 
they're building a 3-metre high fence around the city, they've cleared out a 
prison, they tried to ban scarves, it's very cold in Quebec, that was 
defeated. Immigration, and activism, militarization of borders while goods 
run free. 
The Movement against globalization is scandalously white, part of it has to 
do with the relationship with the state, the mainstream left in Europe and 
the US, less so but also in Canada has been in favour of a strong central 
The reason why there aren't better links with indigenous and African 
-Americans is because there isn't the understanding (among the whites) that 
the state represents security, militarization, crackdowns, the state is the 
police, in poor communities. This movement has to be about radical 
participatory democracy with principles of self-determination, the only 
thing which will bridge and make this movement as diverse as it should be. 
If this is simply a movement fighting for better faraway rules and rulers, 
it will continue not to be relevant. Your question relates to strategy, the 
same debate in Canada, divisions in lead up to Quebec. It has to do with 
whether or not everyone will agree to renounce property destruction. It's a 
complicated discussion. 
Q Fair trade/Comercio Justo 
I have very mixed feelings about it, it's important to support fair trade 
coffee from Chiapas, if you have a direct connection and you know where the 
profits are going, but on the other hand there should not be too much 
emphasis on fair trade as an alternative to neoliberalism, because I think 
it's a recipe for turning yourself into a niche market instead of a 
political movement. 
In the US and Europe there's a real history of taking radical political 
movements and turning them into consumer politics, which we saw with the 
environmental movement in the 1980s, where radical critiques of fossil fuels 
and oil drilling turned into personal issues about do you recycle? is your 
laundry detergent green? 
It becomes depoliticising and it makes the movement less radical to focus 
only on issues of personal consumption, capitalism is very absorbent it can 
absorb a niche market of ethical consumption within this broader marketplace 
which is very exploitative. 
This is the debate that's going on in Europe over organic farming, it's 3 
times more expensive, so it becomes a class system, if you can afford it you 
get to have safe food everyone else gets hormones and genetically-modified 
Q Networks? 
Some interesting models are emerging around affinity-group organizing, the 
clash between organizing styles, the pyramid Versus the web, is taking place 
Many young activists who identify themselves with anarchism, many indigenous 
communities also, the issue of democracy within organizing is extremely 
important, it's clashing with NGOs, which are becoming more and more 
powerful, and were formed as a response to the breakdown of political 
lobbying in a way, but have become so powerful that they have to address the 
lack of democracy in their own organizations, you can't scream elitist to 
the people in Davos and the WTO if you're in a glasshouse-at the world 
social forum there was a glass VIP room. 
You can't throw stones from a glass VIP room. 
What about Activism to generate a culture? 
The most powerful moments for us as activists is when we get a taste of the 
future for which we're fighting and that's what we all have to strive for, 
all the time. 
The MST, a movement reclaiming space but also producing. In Italy, the 
network of social centers, squats which are also political and cultural 
centers, where culture is being created, ethical consumption, the answer is 
no, it's not nearly as developed in Europe and the US as it is elsewhere. 
Dia 14 de Marzo, de 2001 
What is Turbo-Capitalism? 
It is a term for unregulated capitalism. 
Internet/New types of struggle. 
I don't mean it's like a bunch of people I just mean that the structure of 
hubs and spokes and the ability to be connected and autonomous at the same 
time is an organic image, best image to describe this global movement, much 
of which is not online, the Internet is a metaphor, the Internet has allowed 
networks to develop with less bureaucracy than had this tech not been 
available.. limits of Internet organizing, access is one, it's very good at 
bombarding you with information but not good at sifting. 
That's also a good metaphor for this movement. Also Internet is less 
democratic, very centralized.. corporate network within the network-cocooned 
Internet communities. 
Do Businesspeople read your book? 
They're reading the book, and yeah, a lot of reaction from them. It's been 
the Number one selling business book in England, for quite some time. I was 
in London and did an event at the Victorian Albert museum, I asked the 
audience if anyone worked in marketing- 75% of the audience raised their 
hand. I have lots of unwelcome readers, the secret police in Canada reads my 
book and quotes it and I've also been invited to speak to Unilever, Nordtel, 
Wolf Owens, the largest brand management firm in europe, basically they know 
something is going on and they want to understand it, and control it. 
Obviously I've turned down every engagement, I don't speak to corporations, 
I'll speak to businesspeople at an open forum but I won't be a consultant.. 
Any repentant businesspeople? 
I get great letters from people in advertising who say they bought the book 
to get tricks and ended up thinking a lot about the work they do, for 
whatever that's worth.. The reason I don't do these events is I don't like 
them.. I once spoke to marketing people and it's not enjoyable, they're 
upset and hostile, they're very frustrated because I can't give them advice. 
It's not because there's a secret recipe.. you can't worry too much about 
who reads your information. 
This movement is a response to everything having been co-opted so when you 
go and try to co-opt that feeling of wanting space and wanting your identity 
back from corporations, it only radicalizes you more...I don't think these 
companies can co-opt this movement. 
It's not lifestyle politics so it's not vulnerable, if it is co-optable, 
like a Sprite campaign, then there's something wrong with your politics. 
They're studying RST, I don't know if you saw 'Netwar' a Rand corporation 
book abut the EZLN, a wonderful book, it's a good description of what's 
happening it shows they have a deep understanding of network organizing but 
they don't have a clue how to deal with it. 
John Jordan said (RST), corporations are like a giant tanker and we're a 
school of fish, so we can go around them and under them, they're really big 
but they have a lot of trouble changing direction. They are slow, they 
understand that our diversity and our ability to come at a target from 
multiple directions using multiple tactics is the greatest strength the 
movement has, whether it's the swarm round the Zapatistas or in Prague.. 
activists were able to get around the police force which outnumbered them, 
with big tanks on bridges, by going up and around and backwards. That was 
possible because of an organizing strategy based on autonomous affinity 
Role of the journalist/activist. 
It's very complicated, I'm surprised I'm still getting work as a journalist. 
There is a great tradition of activist journalism, La Jornada is part of 
that, we don't have that tradition in the US, I believe in it, I know that 
writers and journalists have always been part of movements, I reject the 
false dichotomy. I'm not pretending to be an unbiased reporter, so until I 
can no longer get published I'll keep on doing it. 
I'm in a weird situation, the book has become part of a movement, I wrote a 
book about a movement and it exploded just as my book was being published.. 
I've spent the past year speaking at counter-conferences, teach-ins, etc 
endorsing, fundraising, being an activist, the first royalty check I got I 
sent to the worker's assistance center in Rosario so they can keep 
organizing free trade zone workers.. in the Philippines. 
I'm not a propagandist, I have written critical pieces on the movement, I 
just wrote something which pissed off most people about the Social Forum, 
I've talked with friends in the Indymedia scene, what they were saying is.. 
There's a way of being critical that is clearly within the movement, of not 
being an armchair pundit.. 
It would be a disservice to the movement if I was to lose my critical 
faculties and became a cheerleader. Already I am doing too much analysis and 
not enough research, I had four years of research, that made the book (No 
Logo) a valuable tool for activists, now a year.on the circuit. I'm going to 
need to go back and do more intensive research to continue being a useful 
The answer to representative democracy is local participatory democracy, I'm 
interested in looking closely at localization in all its forms, it can be 
nostalgic and reactionary, lot of people calling for localization whether 
you like it or not.. Chiapas, Porto Alegre, what PT is doing with 
participatory budget, I want to find out more, that's what I feel like 
doing.. I want to educate myself. 
Ireland and globalization? 
I've never been there, I feel weird commenting on a country I haven't 
visited. An Export-processing zone, Ireland is being held up more and more 
as the success story, just in conversations I've had, letters. Always 
something interesting when you have rapid corporatisation and logofication 
in a country with a strong nationalist and religious tradition, there people 
see it very clearly that these symbols are replacing the church.. Sense 
among many people that it's not so bad, compared to conservatism of before.. 
Ireland is going through this process very quickly, very visible, just 
Zapatista caravan? 
It's incredible, Mexico is in uncharted territory, there's never been 
anything like this, which is why it's so scary and exciting, it feels like 
yesterday was as far ahead as anyone could think, we're completely inventing 
this as we go along, you don't want to get it wrong, Zapatismo has revived 
hope for another kind of politics and you don't want that to be 
disillusioning, there's so much disillusion on the left.. 
People are very aware of what it would mean to become disillusioned with 
this process, particularly people from across the world, Zapatismo has come 
to stand for another way of doing politics that is not dogmatic and as 
ideological, came up in Prague, people had lived through both great 
ideologies and wanted neither, that's why so many young activists today call 
themselves anarchists and talk about autonomus zones and counter-powers to 
the state and there's this interesting synergy between zapatismo and that 
anachist theory.. anarchists were on-line (conectados a la red) before the 
rest of the left they were using the Internet before everyone else and 
setting up lists, that's how zapatista communiques circulated, anarchists 
set up the first support websites.. this is part of the same project, they 
What's driving these anarchists is seeing the failure of communism and 
capitalism and wanting something else, something that treats them as fully 
human, not just as workers or consumers, this desire to be a whole human 
being to have integration between culture and politcs, to build communities 
that are genuine alternatives, there's an interesting echo of that. 
We've had autonomous zones before, in the 1960s a lot of people dropped out 
and created little utopias, Jose Bove came out of that, he was a student 
activist in 68, he formed a farming community with his friends, now he's 
back- it's like the revenge of the drop-outs, they're back and they're 
One strain of this movement is people who dropped out and who are saying 
wait a minute, I don't want to leave the world to these guys, somehow a 
marriage between the idea of building a counter-power but also engaging with 
the state. 
Engaged drop-outs, autonomous zones engaged with the state, like the 
Zapatistas addressing congress., engaging with the political process, it's 
the furthest we've ever seen in terms of this balance, it's very exciting.. 
As someone who has studied marketing strategies, how do you rate Fox? 
I thought you were going to ask me about Marcos! (se rie) I just wrote my 
column about this, about the brand wars in Mexico, one of the ways in which 
Marcos is being criticised outside Mexico, is over the industry of marcos, 
t-shirts, hero worship, he's an attention-seeker, people are trying to 
present Marcos as this self-promoter who's just like Fox, we've seen lots of 
articles where it's like the war of the towering egos, just a couple of guy 
fighting for airtime, awful. 
When you see it up close it doesn't look like branding it looks like 
folklore and it's a reminder that corporations didn't invent these marketing 
tools they're using-we did. 
They're really old , what is branding but investing a symbol with meaning, 
that's what Nike and McD does. More and more companies talk about building a 
narrative around their company, we relate to stories, they're talking about 
folklore and co-opting the techniques of folklore and that's what branding 
is, what I'm seeing for the first time in my life is living folklore where 
symbols are invested with meaning and stories are told and retold and that's 
up against Fox's Coca-Cola politics. 
What's interesting is that it's not working, (la estrategia de Fox) this 
whole simulation of peace and the rock concert, pretending you have peace 
before you have it, trying to trick people, what I saw all along the way, I 
saw someone holding signs that said 'Say no to TV Peace,' very clearly 
demanding peace with dignity and justice, people are rejecting this empty 
branding version of peace. 
He is trying to brand peace. The power of the zapatistas has been that they 
have also used imagery so well, narrative and imagery.. everything we're 
told about globalization says is that this shouldn't be happening. McD and 
Coca-Cola, when this marketing-driven politics, this poll-driven politics 
comes into play traditional cultures lose their power and we've seen it.. 
except it's not happening here.. on the march I saw fast-food workers on 
their break from KFC in their uniforms, supporting the Zapatistas, an 
amazing triumph of humanity and folklore in the face of this fake culture. 
It's so wonderful to know that they don't always win, don't you think? 
I had read that this is a true social movement but also a lot of propaganda 
of how Marcos is an egomaniac who doesn't really have the support, I 
definitely think.. a friend of mine on the caravan said she thought she'd 
seen a social movement until she went on the caravan, just the 
cross-generational support, across the board support, cross-class, that 
doesn't happen in the US. 
The opposite happens, protestors come in from out of town and they're seen 
as an invasion and people are scared of protests, the idea of families going 
out to cheer a rebel army with little kids on their shoulders, it's an 
inspiration for foreign activists, it's such an antidote against 
vanguardism, because there's a way in which any movement gets stuck in whose 
more radical than who, who's using the right rhetoric you end up talking to 
fewer and fewer people in more radical tones, but what is truly radical is 
reaching people, where they work where they live, and a lot of (foreign) 
activists here in Mexico this week saw this for the first time and realised 
how very unradical they are, which is good! 
It's the inclusiveness of the message and language that creates space, it's 
an incredibly welcoming generous movement..this is a community under siege 
so most people under siege just defend themselves they don't have time to 
share anything, it's remarkable process, and shows that when a door is open 
like that, people sometimes come in.. 
What the guys form Davos hate most is the idea that there is a discussion 
going on outside of their discussion and what they're saying is, we'll 
invite NGOs inside, they're willing to be more inclusive once they are in 
control of the discussion, they control the spectrum, that control is so 
important that they are willing to invite quite radical activists inside. 
The head of the WEF said before Davos this year.. If you're serious about 
discussion you're at the table not on the streets, the importance of what 
happened in Cancun and PA is an insistence that they do not control the 
table and they were forced to have a debate that they didn't control, it 
wasn't their table, they were forced to share the table, they hate that. 
Zedillo said you're either on the globalization train or you're promoting 
We see how far that got him, he was at Davos making the same argument.. He 
said the globaphobes, Seattle protestors were trying to save the developing 
world from development. Interesting that His party got voted out, these guys 
go to these meetings, claim to speak on behalf of the whole country, I've 
been harping on this anti-globalization being a pro-democracy movement as 
otherwise it plays into the hands of him and others, to talk about 
anti-globalization, yes we want the jobs we want them to be better jobs. 
I never advocate boycotts, in all the conversations in the maquilas, its 
their biggest fear, that we'll go back to Canada and the US and say don't 
buy the products, they'll lose their jobs and be punished. 
In order to get the development we want unions, health care, education, we 
don't wan't to keep giving you tax breaks, its democracy.. that has to be 
developed. Developing countries want investment but the recipe has been this 
tradeoff of democracy in exchange for investment, IMF dictates, or WB-funded 
dam, imposed on over 1 million people, displacing them. 
There is a strain in the anti-globalization movement that is against 
industrial development of all kinds, nostalgic, a pre-agrarian wonderland, 
it's a minority, but it's important that we say that's now what we want, or 
the Zedillos of the world will have a field day. 
Unabomber manifesto? 
I don't have anything to say about it.. he represents the strain I was 
talking about, just as imperialist anti-democratic, there are extremists out 
there who believe they know how everyone should live and they're willing to 
do anything to enforce that and I find that just as offensive. 
When did you get interested in the EZLN? 
It was not until years later that the connection with NAFTA became clear, I 
read the Rand report, the Mexican govt presented it as an ethnic conflict, 
nothing to do with the broader world, not even to do with the rest of 
mexico, let alone NAFTA. 
It was two years later that I read the first communique and it's only more 
recently.. I didn't come the traditional way, through Latin America 
solidarity networks I came at it by seeing the way in which Marcos' ideas 
were influencing this movement that I have been involved in, these key 
phrases, a movement of one No and many Yeses,. profoundly influencing a 
generation of activists who are taking these ideas around the world not just 
in terms of zapatista solidarity but in terms of what they really want.. 
that's the influence its had on me. 
Zapatista theory, is travelling and influencing struggles very far from 
Chiapas, in the past year, since Seattle, the pressing question is what are 
you for, in answering that question I think the zapatistas have the most 
compelling ideas. A counter to the ideas coming from more traditional 
marxist intellectuals who see street actions as an opportunity to revive 
some old structures which shall remain nameless. 
Zaps are influencing those people too? Examples? 
In Porto Alegre this was the split, very divided between.. the slogan was 
another world is possible, there were people there who said, yeah, our 
world! There was a rebellion of the younger activists who saw this as 
doctrinaire, rejected the push for a single manifesto out of the WSF, very 
influenced by the Zapatistas, the manifesto gang lost. It wasn't contained 
in one document that pretended to speak for 10,000 people who represented 
many more people than that. 
Joao Pedro Stedile, MST chief and Jose Bove, both of them very influenced by 
zaps. Galeano? 
Got through the Galeano riot, it was amazing, such a beautiful speaker, he 
talked about the zapatistas, I don't know what he said. Joao talked about 
how they learned to build a social movement, started off organizing workers, 
that didn't work, so they tried farmers, then they learned to organise 
communities, families, he also said that the more they're attacked the more 
people support them, by media and military, they have learned that people 
don't just have minds they also have hearts, they have learned about the 
power of hymns and the power of flags.. he said we didn't invent that, I 
thought yeah we're re-learning some very old things we used to know, he 
power of myth and building a myth. I'm very interested in this as I write 
about branding, which is the betrayal of that, of the meaning, it is 
separated from belief, from an action. 
So now we're reminded of the incredible power when the symbol and the 
meaning really are connected, are grounded in a real movement, that can even 
stand up to tv! We think nothing can stand up to the power of TV! 
The Zapatistas didn't invent this either but somehow they have reminded a 
lot of us of something we already knew. 
* * * * * * * * * * 
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